My Hero Academia Law Book talk:Requesting of User Rights

My Hero Academia Law Book:Requesting of User Rights/Archive

Discord Server
Firstly, let me stress that in no way am I downplaying Roranoa Drake II's role in fostering a vibrant Discord server for MHA fans; I think their accomplishment is not to be sneezed at. However, at present, the administrative structure of Roranoa Drake II's Discord server is not representative of that of the wiki's, and Roranoa Drake II enjoys considerably disproportionate power on Discord over the rest of the wiki bureaucrats/administrators/content moderators. Additionally, Roranoa Drake II liberally silences robust discussions related to decisions that they've implemented, under the pretence of avoiding public drama. Whilst in principle this rule is useful for dealing with trolls, it should not be abused to shut down in-good-faith policy discussions, especially when they're critical of Roranoa Drake II. (To quote them from [ before], "[a] user who has any sort of user rights should be an exemplary model among others.") Rather, such discussions should be held in the open for all to critique. If Roranoa Drake II's Discord server is to be affiliated with this wiki, then: (a) all wiki bureaucrats and administrators should have equivalent administrative privileges on that Discord server (and all wiki content moderators should have equivalent moderation privileges on that Discord server); and (b) discussions pertaining to policy should be exempted from the "no drama" rule, especially when conducted in the  channel. The same applies to other spin-off accounts, such as the "wiki" Twitter account ( @BokuNoHeroWikia ). Otherwise, this wiki should sever ties with Roranoa Drake II's Discord server, and if they plan to retaliate, their wiki privileges should be revoked. TheHaloVeteran (talk) 13:12, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

I am in agreement with all of the points raised here. Damage3245 (talk) 13:16, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

It was I who started the wiki server and came up with the idea to do it, after becoming unsatisfied with the reddit server. I later handed the server over to Drake. The idea was to make an accessible and wiki focused server. Although I am a member of the server, I don't feel the wiki benefits anyway from it. There have been times where people have messaged me, feeling dissatisfied with the way Drake or other people handle things on the server. Although I have got nothing against Drake or the server. I believe we once discussed about acting responsibly on both the wiki and server. Judging from Halo's comments that's where I might have a problem with acting responsibly. I agree that all wiki role users should be given responsibility on the server. If I remember correctly there was a time where I wanted to give wiki members equal rights on the server, but it was overruled and wiki members have become excluded ever since. 13:51, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

My two cents as a relative newcomer is that it feels like editors are relegated to the sidelines on that server, despite it being branded as the wiki's Discord server. My own interactions with Rora(/Noctis/Ragdoll) have been frustrating; they come off as arrogant and dismissive, and quick to silence dissent, despite it being blatantly obvious that they could use some help with [ CSS] and [ JS]. And yet they're in charge of the design department, the only department that's not accepting new members. For the record, unabridged transcripts of my run-ins with them can be found on Pastebin under the IDs  and. puxlit (talk) 14:29, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

I also agree with what TheHaloVeteran had to say about Drake and him abusing his power over others. Drake is also turning the wiki's discord less and less about the wiki and more about him creating his own little fan club. I say this due to the following things Drake has done.


 * Kicking/banning who ever he wants, making any rules he disires (that works in his favor) to the point that he tries to bring his rules on to the wiki.


 * Threatening others a wiki block if they don not abide by whatever he says. An example of this is the comment he left on the wiki rules page saying "Just an fyi. Any user who is not an administrator and tries to edit this page will get a block. No exceptions" even tho majority of wiki staff have disagreed with the rule.


 * Putting none wiki editors in power, I had no problem with tommy/skye/teara being admins/mods but giving some random 20 or so people power over the wiki server(sidekicks) just because they were nice to you. Also demoting wiki bureaucrats and admins below even sidekicks.
 * Drake's biggest problem is handling any criticism or objection. He uses the drama rule to mute or kick others,  and when asked in the dm's he ignores you. This ignorance has also been seen on the wiki when he deletes and locks threads he knows will have negative comments about him.

Kakarots (talk) 15:13, July 13, 2018 (UTC)Kakarots

Roronoa Drake II has created a fine discord server with lots of good people. However, it's more of a My Hero Academia Fanclub server than a My Hero Academia Wiki server. The editors have about 2 channels to work with and if anyone disagrees with Roronoa Drake II or any of his friends they are silenced.

A friend of mine and Puxlit had a disagreement with Roronoa Drake II about the main page slider. It got heated and Puxlit was muted for voicing his opinion simply because it was not in line with what Roronoa Drake II desired. He and his friends also made comments about how edit count doesn't matter and basically said that contributions shouldn't impact your authority on the server. Their name escapes me but his friend even mentioned that they didn't care about the content on this wiki but they had special permissions on the server. This is just one example of Roronoa Drake II's tendency to use his power to silence critics.

Kakarots has been banned from the server and other users have been muted or kicked. All I care about is getting work done on the wiki. The only reason I use Discord is to talk to editors so we can get work done. This is becoming increasingly difficult because of the animosity between the wiki editors and the people who run the discord server. This cannot continue because it is only growing worse and the community is becoming increasingly frustrated. If the Discord is truly meant to be affiliated with the wiki, then it needs to be governed by the same people who govern this site. DES 15:25, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

From what I can read, the main grievances here are:
 * A perceived abuse of rights from Roranoa
 * Wiki admins and content mods don't have admin/mod access on the server

Addressing the first point here, no one seems to have come up with any real concrete evidence of rights abuse, just anecdotal stories that have to be taken as word of mouth. That's fine, you can't always build a criminal case off of a Discord server, but perhaps if the problem is as serious as is being made out, maybe one hard piece of evidence to suggest rights abuse might have been provided. In fact one of the anecdotal stories, namely one of a content mod being banned on the server, is being spun as rights abuse when it wasn't. Basically bottom line is that if you have complaints about rights abuse, have something to objectively back it up. Word of mouth does not become impartial evidence just because more than one person backs it up. EDIT for some reason my mind skipped over Puxlit's pastebin links. I read them and while I don't think I see any hardcore "rights abuse" I see a bunch of strained relationships between a lot of people. It's not ideal for sure, and I can appreciate that perhaps Roranoa was heavy handed about the reddit server channel discussion. I apologize for missing Puxlit's pastebin links so I retract my statements about no hard evidence being provided, there was at least an attempt to do so. --Callofduty4 (talk) 17:21, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

Now the second point. Why do wiki admins and content mods need admin or mod access on the server? Content moderators were purposefully kept separate from the chat moderator right by Wikia, with the quite purposeful insinuation that content moderators are a separate deal from chat moderators. Well, that separation should hold true for the Discord server too, since it's a chatroom. The biggest thing that makes me confused, is that most of the people involved in this discussion don't actually talk outside of the wiki channel. Why do you need mod/admin rights on the server, in that case? What tangible benefit is there to the server by having mods and admins who the general chatters don't know? Being fair to all ideas and opinions here, I actually do have some complaint about how mods are made on the server, namely that the process is invisible to the larger community. Seeing pink names come out of nowhere fosters an atmosphere of favouritism. But this issue isn't fixed by automatically giving pink names to even more people out of nowhere.

A lot of unnecessary drama here. What for? The ability of editors to talk and contribute to the wiki is not being impeded by anyone or by editcount not being reflected in server privileges. It is a shame that Puxlit got muted and Kakarots got banned, but perhaps it's not as one sided as it seems. Having gone through the rigmarole of setting up a Discord server for a different wiki, I can appreciate concerns about clubs and favouritism, and how closely to reflect wiki user rights on the Discord server. But I have to say, sometimes I see the same kind of cliquishness being criticized here in the #productive-work channel and wiki as well. It's okay, it isn't on purpose. But just have that same kind of consideration for other parts of the server too. Not everything is as one-sided as is being made out here. --Callofduty4 (talk) 16:40, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

we have pastebin evidence and the fact that Roranoa drake uses the "drama" rule to silence discussion and recently theatened to mute us if we even dared talk about it. Second, the fact that Drake puts the admins of the wiki its linked to at a lower position than sidekicks who for the most part have nothing to do with the wiki itself. Drake has filled the sidekick positions with people who will always agree with her and so nothing can be done even if besty brings it up privately with her. Thirdly this isn't unneccesary drama, this is a public ultimatum to ensure these problems are resolved TheHaloVeteran (talk) 16:50, July 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I even saw the pastebin URLs but it didn't dawn on me that they were logs. Not sure why. Will amend my post. I do believe this is unnecessary drama still, because it has been fairly one sided. --Callofduty4 (talk) 17:21, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not here to take sides. But it is clear to me that change is needed here. 17:33, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

To avoid making this seem like a one-sided attack I should make a few things clear since people seem to think I'm going at another admin. I have no personal issues with Roronoa Drake II. Almost every other encounter I've had with him has been pretty pleasant. Roronoa Drake II is a hard-working editor and he's done great things with the wiki and the discord. He even helped me get my rights back when Wiki Admins were separated from heroes.

My grievances are how the Discord is managed, not with Roronoa Drake II himself. Idk how, but a lot of the burden of running the Discord has fallen on him and I believe stress is probably what causes him to butt heads with the mods. We opened this discussion in order to air out all our feelings and I told the mods I'd have their backs on this. I don't mean to shame Roronoa Drake II or try to get him demoted or anything of that sort.

We are simply trying to find a way to keep things fair and keep the Discord server from becoming a one-man show in order to relieve the tension. I hope we can find some middle group and stop this before it becomes a dramatic mess. Because that's more counterproductive than anything. DES 18:00, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

Don't have much to add as I only use Discord occasionally, but there does seem to exist proof of abuse of power and apparent circle jerking, which can lead to terrible consequences for a community. Considering that the Discord Server itself is part of our recruitment conditions (which already gathered its own share of controversy), then this is our problem as well.

I'm willing to hear Roranoa though. I don't like to take sides in cases like this. I believe it's good for Admins to challenge each other until they find a common ground. KingCannon (talk) 18:23, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

There are currently 6,301 users on the Discord. About 1,000 actually have accounts on this wiki. For starters Halo, if you wanted to make this something where everyone could contribute like Discussions. Four users does not equate to a public ultimatum. A lot of information has been taken out of context or intentionally left out. Now to address the concerns in no particular order.

1. Wikia got rebranded to Fandom in 2016. We are not just an encyclopedia for information on the series, it's a hub to talk about the series as well. Yes, Wiki is part of the name. However, there's only so many editing related channels one can add to the server. No one has approached me with any new ideas or suggestions to enhance the editing experience or draw interest via Discord so I assumed all was fine. The lack of new editors in my opinion, is not the fault of the Discord, rather the current main editors themselves. I've seen people who express interest, but either get pushed away or get ignored. I also notice that certain users take pride in their edit count (this will be addressed again) and basically have an embargo on edits. Why not save some of the easier edits for new users to practice and hone their skills with?

2. More on the server itself. As others have pointed out editing and chat room are completely different environments. Just because you are a good editor does not equate to being a good leader on a Discord. It's apples and oranges. I've seen on several occasions where users think they can transgress the rules just because they have a high edit count. I'm thankful for all the edits that the users on this forum have made. It's part of the reason why we're ranked #12. However, that still does not excuse inappropriate behavior on the server. I've seen Kakarot's ban being brought up a few times, so I'll address it here. Kakarot was not banned for "no reason", he was banned for multiple infractions. Those include, but not limited to harassing other users, to the point of being uncomfortable and wanting to leave, arguing with other users, and leaching members into his own private server. Recently he was caught sending people to raid the wiki server via another user. I've shown Besty the screenshots and he was also banned on that server. Even in the hypothetical scenario where Kakarots was "innocent", that went out the window the moment he resorted to such actions. Very inappropriate for a content moderator.

3. @Desboy I will quote your comment presented earlier in the forum The only reason I use Discord is to talk to editors so we can get work done Okay, that's fine. No one wants to get in the way of that. However, 2 users are complaining on your behalf because you're not a Hero too. If you want to contribute more to server I'd be happy to oblige. The same goes for KingCannon too. I made Besty a Hero because he's active in every channel and helps with maintaining the server and dealing with users' problems. If you're going to just lurk and stay in the editing channels, then your current role suits your needs.

4. As for the comment about me "silencing criticism". That's just not true. For example, it took months for someone to point out Class 1-A 2nd Year should be renamed Class 2-A. They were without a doubt correct and admitted I made a mistake. As for Puxlit and his CSS and JS advising. I acknowledge his CSS and JS skills. However, I don't need to be pinged for every minor JS issue. I have made most of edits to my knowledge. As long as it's a minor edit, other admins can make that edit. The important point I want to bring up is that Discord should not be replacement for forums. I've noticed a lot of editing decisions being made without consulting with other editors first. Dragonus Nesha brought that issue to light. As for the times I've muted or brought up kicking a user, I've only done so when the issue escalates to the point where users are insulting each other. There's nothing "productive" about it. If there's an issue use the forums and keep it civil. Editors will be treated the same as every other user and will not gain special treatment. 18:38, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

Drake and King have said any discord member can comment so I will. I have seen Drake portraying characteristics that admin should not, and I dont think it is a good idea to have an admin(one that wasnt an admin for long) to be the server owner, like most wiki servers I have seen the Bureaucrat are the owners. Maybe the ownership should be transfered to either Besty or GamertimesUS. Morow Hisoka (talk) 19:09, July 13, 2018 (UTC)Morow Hisoka

This is an incomplete response. I'll add more later. To Callofduty4 and Rora's point on the how the privilege imbalance is justified, my understanding is decisions are made by the Discord admins that affect the wiki without consultation from the wiki admins/content mods. Events like double/triple/quadruple XP are nice, but they inevitably draw in some amount of low quality edits. (Examples include pointless file uploads by Buggybean/, pointless insertion of punctuation by Dekupie/ , and pointless insertion of whitespace by Destinyxgaming507/ . Here's an attachment from  of   working out the calculus of these XP schemes; their incentive to contribute should be to help the wiki, not to earn virtual points. To complicate matters, no mapping of wiki accounts to Discord accounts is readily available to wiki admins/content mods/editors, so it'd be difficult for us to pass these infractions along to the Discord admins.) And ultimately it's the wiki admins/content mods/regular editors that have to deal with this, not the majority of the current Discord admins. If only Discord admins get a say in such decisions, then wiki admins should be made Discord admins. At the very least, they should be consulted, and get to cast a vote on such decisions. To Rora's point about there being 1000 accounts on this wiki from Discord, what proportion of them have actually made one or two good-faith edits? If their incentive to create an account is to be given a shiny role, I don't think it's reasonable to count them as bona fide accounts. To Rora's point about this place being more than a wiki, I want to stress that there are other forums for discussion, including Reddit and other Discord servers. However, Wikia is unique in being one of the most prominent sources for fans to find out plot points and character details. (TV Tropes occupies a complementary niche.) To Rora's point about using the Wiki Discussion forum, some of us would love to, except that category appears to be unmoderated, with the majority of recent posts there better suited for Predictions or Anime or Manga. Perhaps if that section were actually moderated, we'd make more use out of it. puxlit (talk) 20:03, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

Additional counterarguments. To Rora's point on saving easy edits, as far as I'm aware there's, and the wiki admins have always welcomed fixing typos/grammatical errors/tone inconsistencies and expanding upon stubs as a means for new editors to get their feet wet. But if a regular editor spots a problem, it makes little sense for them to "save" it up as training material, when there exist proper resources on. Rora also seems to discount our efforts to lower the barrier of entry for first-time editors, from curating the list of stubs, to making character galleries [ easier to edit], to to [ preventing] some forms of accidental policy infractions. To Rora's point on how any admin can facilitate minor CSS/JS changes, my point is that I get the impression that Rora is hostile to entertaining the idea of broader changes, such that I went through Besty17 to implement changes that should have fallen under the remit of the design department (like this and this). To Rora's suggestion that they gracefully admit their mistakes, I look at interactions like Thread:31265 and see a new editor making an in-good-faith edit, only to have their edit reverted (when it would have taken all of two seconds to verify that the edit was sensible), and then reply a week later with a curt "[you] shouldn't have been able to edit that to begin with, but I went ahead and restored the edit." puxlit (talk) 21:28, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't familiar firsthand with the drama here, but for what it's worth, the portal discussion did strike me as .... exacting. I like to serve my suggestions with a grain of salt. Not surprised at Karkarots' ban being merited either, some good faith would help there.

That's not really here nor there tho. It's perfectly possible for everyone here to rub each other up badly by accident. Still, it would be nice if the goal was getting everyone on the same page here (rather than assuming there's no option and requesting demotion). Also, I don't think having this kind of discussion is ever gonna work in the wiki channels without blowing up, so 👍 to never allowing it there.

I genuinely think content mods in particular don't need extra permissions on the server. It's certainly not their remit, and it limits the wiki's options for expanding that group (to people who are essentially saints or the equivalent on the Discord).

There's also benefit to having the "Sidekicks" role - 6000+ users is likely way too many for a traditional admod team to handle, and those users cover the many social channels better than the content mods would. The "cliqueness" of it seems like something for a different discussion, ig.

For a few of the users here, average percentage of posts in the server's wiki category is a whopping 80% - would those mod rights ever be really useful?

The edit gaming strikes me as an issue - maybe that could be solved with server or wiki bans if necessary. It's possible to turn the role request channel into a username list - maybe the Discord mods could make a Google doc for it.

• speedy • 🔔&#xFE0E; • 🚀︎ • 23:32, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

Just like to jump in here and say some stuff. I've been on quite a few discord servers and a number of them have been really successul. However I have never seen a discord server that is as active, friendly or welcoming as the MHa server. Typically either teh admins are tyrannical or the community is toxic. Since its been made, as I have been there from the beginning, there have been very few occurnences that have touched in either of these two catagories. When they have they are typically swiftly dealt with and forgotten rather quickly. Not just Drake but Besty, Skye, Tea and Tommy but the other mods on there as well do a fantastic job of catching things early and getting rid of toxicity. What you may think of as over stepping boundries and muting ppl is what is required to make a discord server work or else it ruins it in an instant. That can be said of discussions as well and even talk pages that get locked after some argument goes too far. Its part of running a site on the internet and why these types of places exist outside the toxicity that is reddit. If you can't have an argument without insulting someone or getting heated than don't have one. If you think that you've been muted unfairly it was either a decision to stop it before it got worse, a misinterpreation of tone, or you are being bias. I've known Drake for alomst 2 years now and have been around his style of moderation for that entire time and there has never been a time where I have felt he overstepped his bounds. Maybe disagreed with how he handled it but saw his justicficatons as decent. For the people who say that he ignores you the dude hasn't even been on that much recently due to irl stuff. He isn't gonna be able to get to everyone that DM's him. Plus I'm a mod on there and this is the first i have heard of it. If this really concerns you so much try asking more than one person or bring it up in chat or something

As for your problems with the incentives for the discord server, that arguably make it more active adn encourage wiki users, I don't see what your probelm is. First you guys say you want to have a role there in moderation so that you are part of the decision making and then you say you don't use it for anything other than wiki work. So you aren't going to be given power over chat so that you can do wiki work. They are two seperate things. However in your complaint about the incentives leading to lazy editing thats kinda your job. Regardless of what what the discord server does there are going to be bad edits. Blaming it on the discrod server seems like a scapegoat to me. I would assume that the amount of good edits far outways the bad edits anyway.

If you guys wanna be more invovled in the decision making then the best thing to do is be active on the server. However if you don't want to do that. Maybe we could make a role for people who have more than x amount of edits and have it be invisible or something. Than make a channel that only that role can use (along with mods obviously.) It could just be the wiki admins or something. Giving mod powers to ppl who don't use the server much is pretty pointless especially since one the complaints was that you didn't know the mods who showed up (which is also probs due to name changes that happen frequently). If you don't its becuase you aren't active. Every mod thats been on has been on the server for a long time and only gotten promoted because they were extremely active, friendly and helpful. Like I said tho complainig about being left out of the decision making is entirely fixed by being more active on the server and actually trying to solve the problem by asking mods or something. You guys are acting like Drake is the only user on the server. ASL Pirates 23:48, July 13, 2018 (UTC)

(To quote them from [ before], "[a] user who has any sort of user rights should be an exemplary model among others.") Rather, such discussions should be held in the open for all to critique. If Roranoa Drake II's Discord server is to be affiliated with this wiki, then: (a) all wiki bureaucrats and administrators should have equivalent administrative privileges on that Discord server (and all wiki content moderators should have equivalent moderation privileges on that Discord server); and (b) discussions pertaining to policy should be exempted from the "no drama" rule, especially when conducted in the  channel. The same applies to other spin-off accounts, such as the "wiki" Twitter account ( @BokuNoHeroWikia ). Otherwise, this wiki should sever ties with Roranoa Drake II's Discord server, and if they plan to retaliate, their wiki privileges should be revoked. TheHaloVeteran (talk) 13:12, July 13, 2018 (UTC) As much as that's a nice ideal and all, personally I think its both a massive security issue and stupid argument. Giving people who likely don't know how to properly use the Twitter or Discord mod functions and even live up to the standards set forth is stupid.

One thing to keep in mind is that both parties specialize in one thing or another. From what we've seen on the wiki side of things, there's been a lot of issues from that party in discord which we're all aware of I'm sure.

For the most part, the Discord staff do not mess with the wiki party or the wiki in general, each side has their specialty and respects each other's turf.

For the most part, the higher-ups per say on the Discord, for the most part, have real experience and knowledge with content moderation on Discord, in some cases quite extensively (my case).

Cosmetic roles which we already offer to wiki admins etc is great and works, however employing users with little to no real experience with Discord content moderation, especially considering the recent drama with some of them and their actions/comments inside the MHA discord and outside in "private" servers I am extremely opposed to the idea of granting such users power on the server without seeing them; We've worked hard to maintain the image of this community, from creating advanced new tools to help fight harmful content to educating our sidekicks on multiple different fronts of content moderation and more. We've created an extremely positive and active community, which is extremely rare to see. I will fight tooth and nail if needed to keep potentially extremely unskilled and potentially malicious users from gaining power on the server. The server is an official Discord Partnered community, our standards are even higher now with that for our staff.
 * 1) Active in the community (outside of the wiki channels).
 * 2) Not have a poor record (being banned, kicked, making drama etc).
 * 3) Actually, show they can contribute and help keep our community amazing.

You don't see me begging/ranting for Administrator rights on the wiki since I'm a Hero on the server. Why? Because I respect the fact I don't have what it takes to live up to that roles expectations on the Wiki. As All Might once said, "It's not bad to dream. But you also have to consider what's realistic".

If you show that you can be a quality member in the Discord helping, contributing quality content, not being toxic etc. Then we will consider you relatively fast to become apart of the servers staff team possibly. Tommyfoxy2 (talk) 02:17, July 14, 2018 (UTC)